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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) On the Late Massacre In Piedmont (Read 482 times)
sierra
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #14 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 5:59pm
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I think it makes sense Roll Eyes  The way the line is worded:  "The triple Tyrant:  that from these may grow"
  
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pinkcottoncandy
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #13 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 5:31pm
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The who is the the Hundred fold or those that leave "Babylon" or false religion beacuse of the example of the ones who were killed.  Or at least that's what I ascertained. Sierra does that make sense to you?----------Andy
  
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Terence
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #12 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 4:33pm
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As Andy mentioned, there are a lot of Biblical illusions in this poem and I would guess that identifying them is one of the challenges, (not one I would be good at).

L3, at least, I believe to be trochaic rather than iambic and has an extra syllable. At least part of that might have been avoided by using "E'en". 

It is unlikely, in those times, that Milton would have worked for Cromwell had he not been Protestant. We may not even have Paradise Lost but for Cromwell.
  
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sierra
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #11 - Nov 6th, 2006 at 7:10am
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I don't really have anything interesting to add.  All the bumps Terence pointed out are noticable to me except L3 and 11 seem right.  L12 is a little confusing because I'm reading it two ways and I'm not sure what to make of it, causing me to question who?  "who, having learnt thy way early may fly the Babylonian woe."  And what does early mean here?

Reading Milton is almost as good as the bible Undecided , and I haven't been doing much of that sort of reading in a long while.  Sad.

So was Milton Protestant? 


  
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #10 - Nov 2nd, 2006 at 4:32pm
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As far as Milton goes,  I pefer sonnet IX , To a Virtuous Young Lady.This is intresting though.  This is littered with Biblical illusions. One that jumps is the reference to a hundred fold, or the seed illustration in the scriptures. ----Andy
  
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Tim
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #9 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 8:43am
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Hi All,

i honestly have nothing i can add to this. i read the sonnet on a thematic level and it just reads quite literal.
With regards to mechanics, i like the 'bump' in L3, it adds an import onto them, those killed, by adding that extra syllable. Nice touch.

O'er all the Italian fields, where still doth sway   
The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow   
A hundred fold, who, having learnt thy way,
 

i really like sway, may way, and grow, fold and in the last line, woe. The above three lines have an alliteration cutting through the beautiful assonance and off-rhyme.

i may be reading too much into this poem, because of Terence's posting, but is it coincidental that may and fly are next to each other in the last line?

~tim
  
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #8 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 12:38am
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Norm -- please don't; this is where this stuff gets interesting! Most of my comments have an air of Devil's Advocate about them anyway, and I'd like for them to be taken in that light (although I won't concede any uncivility on my part). So if you choose to discontinue, then fair enough -- but I'd certainly enjoy hearing your thoughts.

James
  
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Normpo
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #7 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 12:33am
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James,

You are right --- no need to get "uppity" --- we differ on your scales of measure...

I'll pass at this point --- I like civility in the discussion of great poetry.

Norm

  
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James_AL_Midgley
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #6 - Oct 30th, 2006 at 12:11am
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'This poem cannot compete with Lycidas on the basis of pastoral imagery or on the tenets of Christianity.'

Certainly. No need to get uppity over my method of expressing what you go on to agree with. Perhaps you just look at 'pales in comparison with' in a more hyperbolic light than I do. It goes without saying that the poem is good: it's written by Milton. 

In terms of 'anger', I would suggest that

Blind mouthes! that scarce themselves know how to hold       
A Sheep-hook, or have learn'd ought els the least       
That to the faithfull Herdmans art belongs!       
What recks it them? What need they? They are sped;       
And when they list, their lean and flashy songs       
Grate on their scrannel Pipes of wretched straw,       
The hungry Sheep look up, and are not fed,       
But swoln with wind, and the rank mist they draw,       
Rot inwardly, and foul contagion spread:       
Besides what the grim Woolf with privy paw       
Daily devours apace, and nothing sed,       
But that two-handed engine at the door,       
Stands ready to smite once, and smite no more.

is far more potent in terms of harshness, especially with the added depth of melancholia. Just listen to the sonics in 'Grate on their scrannel Pipes of wretched straw,       / The hungry Sheep look up, and are not fed, / But swoln with wind, and the rank mist they draw, / Rot inwardly, and foul contagion spread'.

Incidentally, I didn't mean to even bring PL into the equation -- it hardly counts as 'mid-length'. Very little in literature in general matches up to PL, so it hardly needs mentioning.

And in political statement? 'Shame on you for killing those old-fashioned but decent Christian folk who are not idolatrous. I hope their martyrdom goes as an example to spread the faith.' Doesn't seem especially exciting.
« Last Edit: Oct 30th, 2006 at 12:14am by James_AL_Midgley »  
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Normpo
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #5 - Oct 29th, 2006 at 11:37pm
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James,

I haven't "weighed in" yet on this poem that I taught for years .. put I am jumping in to editorialize with m,y own opinion on one word you chose ... PALES??? ... well, I (and others with better credentials than I) certainly do NOT agree with you. In terms of "greatness", (and structure), "Paradise Lost" and others may be more worthy... but PALES? I don't think so. This poem cannot compete with Lycidas on the basis of pastoral imagery or on the tenets of Christianity. But this poem's purpose is clearly defined by its anger and its political statement so I believe kit must be examined in that light.

Just my opinion.... which my surely "pale" next to yours ~smile~.

Norm

  
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #4 - Oct 29th, 2006 at 10:38pm
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The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the Church.
-- Tertullian

Which, alongside the Parable of the Sower, is of course the volta.

It's solid enough but pales in comparison to his mid-length poems like Lycidas in my opinion.
  
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sierra
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #3 - Oct 28th, 2006 at 6:50am
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Norm ~

I will try and be back to this ~ like nas I'm not familiar with the massacre at Piedmont.  I do however have a book on Milton.  I think I'll get it out  Undecided
  
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #2 - Oct 26th, 2006 at 6:52pm
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This poem is one where, I would say, some history does need to be known.
The subject is the massacre of Waldensians, a Christian church who promoted true poverty, public preaching and the literal interpretation of the Bible. Declared heretical, the movement was persecuted by the Roman Catholic church who were opposed to the translation and circulation of the Bible to laity. The massacre took place in the Italian Piedmont valleys in 1655 by the army of Charles Emmanuel II, the Catholic Duke of Savoy. The Protestant world was angered and Oliver Cromwell, then Lord Protector of England, protested. John Milton was his foreign secretary and poet. He dedicated this sonnet of Paradise Lost to the thousand of slaughtered Waldensians.
My guess is that the triple Tyrant would be referring to the Pope.

As far as mechanics of form are concerned, I found bumps in meter in L3, 8, 10, 11 and 14.

I like how he used additional rhymes in L9 and L11 – hills/they, still/sway.

That's my quick take.

nas, your quote, the Psalm, sheds some interesting light on the subject - thanks.

     Terence
  
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Re: On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Reply #1 - Oct 26th, 2006 at 5:30pm
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Hi Norm

I have never read any Milton before and I know nothing of the massacre at Piedmont.  As I'm hopeless at form poetry and don't know one end of a sonnet from the other, I'll leave the technical analysis to those who are more expert.

Quote:
Avenge, O Lord, thy slaughtered saints, whose bones   
Lie scattered on the Alpine mountains cold;   
Even them who kept thy truth so pure of old, 

My interpretation of the words are that he is asking God for avengence on those Christians(were they protestants in a Catholic country?) who were massacred for their beliefs, which they upheld even under threat.  Their bones now lie on the mountainside.   

Quote:
When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones,   
Forget not: in thy book record their groans   
Who were thy sheep, and in their ancient fold

When our forefathers worshipped idols remember those who still followed/ the 'true'  ancient religion.

Quote:
Slain by the bloody Piedmontese, that rolled   
Mother with infant down the rocks.

I assume 'mother with infant' both applies literally to mothers and babies who were slaughtered and also statues and images of the Virgin Mary and Child.


Quote:
Their moans   
The vales redoubled to the hills, and they   
To heaven.

Their moans can be heard from Vale to hills and up to heaven. (guessing this bit)

Quote:
Their martyred blood and ashes sow   
O'er all the Italian fields, where still doth sway   
The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow   
A hundred fold, who, having learnt thy way,   
Early may fly the Babylonian woe.
 
The blood of the martyrs  is scattered all over Italian fields and where the triple Tyrant - reference to the Trident and evil/the devil perhaps - still exists.    The 'old religion' will not be eradicated, it will return, with a hundred times as many followers who learnt the way.

The Babylonian woe makes me think of Psalm 137, popularised by Boney M in the late 70s/early 80s, which talks about persecution and exile and seems quite apt for this massacre.

  Quote:
By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat, sat and wept, as we thought of Zion.
There on the willows we hung up our lyres,
for our captors asked us there for songs, our tormentors, for amusement,
"Sing us one of the songs of Zion."
How can we sing a song of the Lord on alien soil?
If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither;
let my tongue stick to my palate if I cease to think of you,
if I do not keep Jerusalem in memory even at my happiest hour.
Remember, O Lord, against the Edomites the day of Jerusalem's fall;
how they cried, "Strip her, strip her to her very foundations!"
Fair Babylon, you predator,
a blessing on him who repays you in kind what you have inflicted on us;
a blessing on him who seizes your babies
and dashes them against the rocks.
  
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Normpo
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On the Late Massacre In Piedmont
Oct 26th, 2006 at 3:46pm
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On the Late Massacre In Piedmont

by: John Milton (1608-1674)

Avenge, O Lord, thy slaughtered saints, whose bones 
Lie scattered on the Alpine mountains cold; 
Even them who kept thy truth so pure of old, 
When all our fathers worshipped stocks and stones, 
Forget not: in thy book record their groans 
Who were thy sheep, and in their ancient fold 
Slain by the bloody Piedmontese, that rolled 
Mother with infant down the rocks. Their moans 
The vales redoubled to the hills, and they 
To heaven. Their martyred blood and ashes sow 
O'er all the Italian fields, where still doth sway 
The triple Tyrant; that from these may grow 
A hundred fold, who, having learnt thy way, 
Early may fly the Babylonian woe. 

Note: I have mentioned before that this sonnet is in my top ten of favorite poems. There is a lot to "chew" on in this one and it also will afford us the opportunity to look at the poetic mechanics of this sonnet since Milton takes liberties with the form (like Eliot and others). 

This one should give us opportunities to examine a poem of many levels -- interptretation, technique, history, and a lot more).

The discussions on the last two poems were excellent IMHO --- I learned a lot and gained insights with every post.
« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2006 at 3:48pm by Normpo »  
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